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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 27-11-2011, 01:17 PM
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Choosing a microscope

I wonder if someone on WAB could help me.
I am looking to buy a microscope for use in assisting with the identification of invertebrates and plants, the only problem is I don’t know an awful lot about microscopes.

Research has led me to believe that a stereomicroscope would be best, am I correct?

I don’t have a vast amount of money to spend, £150 absolute tops. Looking around I have decided that Brunel Microscopes MX-3 would be a good buy, Stereomicroscopes , does anybody have experience with this company and/or model?

Does any body have any other recommendations or suggestions that would help me make a final decision.

Thanks in anticipation, Ferret
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Old 27-11-2011, 02:20 PM
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Not sure if you are buying for eyeballs or a camera, but this is an interesting site

//http://krebsmicro.com/


alsoMicroscopes - Wild About Britain
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Last edited by basquesteve; 27-11-2011 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 27-11-2011, 04:45 PM
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I am not sure, but think Mal (Bulbosa) uses a microscope for fungi - he usually sticks to the fungi forum here but I will put a message on his profile page to let him know about this thread .
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Old 28-11-2011, 09:10 AM
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I'm not up-to-date with particular micorscope models so this is just general. I've bought from Brunel and they have a good reputation. The model you choose will depend very much on what you're examining - don't use a microscope for anything where a simple hand-lens will suffice!
By 'stereomicroscope' we're usually talking about a binocular of fairly low magnification (x20-x100) which uses reflected light (i.e. with a light source above the specimen. Stronger microscopes using transmitted light (with light source below the specimen) are only useful for microorganisms (protozoa or smaller) and thin sections.
I don't know if it is still possible to get monoculars - certainly wouldn't be 'stereo' and I've always found them uncomfortable; however, they had the advantage of being easily adapted to photography.
So for most invertebrates you'll be talking about a stereo-microscope which is usually binocular and probably has abuilt in light. Beware that the light source may not be sufficient for certain purposes - notably, for many beetles you will want to see tiny hairs, surface microsculpture and many other small features for which strong incidental (tangential light from the side) light is essential. It's generally best to have a separate, adjustable light source for these - commonly a glass fibreoptic.
However, for many features - particularly wing venation and other large structures, high magnification is not necessary and can be confusing so don't waste money on magnification that you won't use. If you can try out the mike beforehand using your own samples that would be very useful!
I'll look around and get back to you!
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Last edited by paul m; 28-11-2011 at 09:13 AM. Reason: afterthought
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Old 28-11-2011, 11:42 AM
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Hi Ferret,

Just a quick note on the offer you linked.

Not sure the base with the transmitted light on the MX-3 is worth the extra money. Looking at invertebrates I've never missed such. But for plants it may be more helpful ?

Like Paul mentioned, keep some budget for (an) extra reflective light source(s). The professional fiber optic thingies usually cost as much as the microscope, but I feel today that there are decent enough alternatives with high power LEDs. These emit more heat than the fiber optics (main reason for using those), but a lot less than the "old school" direct lights that made the fiber optics a must have (by penalty of melting/shriveling your specimen). I fare well enough with one or two "Jansjö" LEDs on a swan-neck from our local Swedish furniture supplier.

Also like Paul mentioned - have a hand-lens for low magnifications, then use the binoc to do better.

You will soon find that you will want to switch forth and back between lower and higher mags. I have never worked with the system, but imho the MX-1 to MX-3 displayed would soon make me cuss - having to slide in a different objective (or set of eyepieces) will almost certainly disturb/move your target (or it will simply walk away meantime, if life specimen). Also, you would need to buy the extra objective/eyepieces (which adds to the cost!), so I would strongly advice for a model with at least two magnifications in a turret such as the MX-4T or MX-5T, which are incidentally cheaper that the one you eyeballed. Or better yet, a "zoom" model, but that will be above budget.

Silly thing with those 4T/5T apparently is that you can't change the eyepieces at home So make a smart choice when ordering.

10x won't give you much above a hand-lens (except for comfort). I have a Olympus with 20x/40x mag (1x/2x turret with 20x eyep.) and a "head unit" without mount/base of some other brand with 1x/3x turret and 10x eyep. and find myself mixing the 20x eyepieces with the 3x head (which are not really interchangeable!) in some very much less than ideal tinkered setup to get a 60x magnification for very minute details of small critters (hairs/tubercles on legs of 2-3mm woodlice, genitalia of harvestmen etc.) all the time wishing for 80x. Honestly though, that clearly is the point where one should decide to make a slide and step over to a regular microscope, but that breaks the workflow. Also, 60x-80x gives you virtually no DOF and somewhat defeats the purpose of the 3D-experience that the binoc offers - which is absolutely flaming brilliant and indispensable at lower mags.

Most of the time I'm very happy to just use the 20x/40x setup. Not being able to exchange the eyepieces, makes for a tough choice. I would probably have to advice to either get a 1x/3x with 15x eyepiece (for 15x/45x mags) or the 20x/40x model offered.

There is a catch(!), that is not documented well on the website: Is the 20x/40x MX-5T a model with a 2x/4x turret and 10x eyepieced? Or is it a 1x/2x turret with 20x eyepieces?

The catch is this: 20x eyepieces usually give you a much smaller "field" - which is mostly due to the the high cost in manufacturing undistorting true wide field oculars at high mags. Of course, manufactures will advertise anything they sell you as "wide field", but that's just talk. So, if the turret is 1x/2x (with 20x oculars) you get a smaller field than a 2x/4x turret with 10x oculars. As there is no price difference with the 1x/3x turret I'm assuming a 1x/2x turret as a 2x/4x turret would involve extra glass (the 1x is a no-lens straight through )

In that case I would probably advice the 1x/3x turret with 15x oculars, giving a slightly better max. mag. (45x as opposed to 40x) with the (most likely?!) slightly wider field of the 15x oculars (as opposed to 20x). The same setup (1x/3x turret) with 20x oculars will give you 20x at the low end, which is okay, but 60x at the high end which is not often really needed (unless you plan to do really tiny stuff) and significantly less comfortable than 40/45x (even less DOF, which is already low at 40x). For general purpose I would go with the 40/45x times max. mag. even if 60x seems appealing.

Incidentally, the MX-6T would still be (just) within the budget indicated, but if you (occasionally) need the through-light I'm sure you can also device a LED-laden platter to fit under the specimen for well under the additional £33 or so.

Please do shop around for second hand. Microscopes don't suffer much wear (just check the optics for scratches) and people tend to get either bored with it or they become professionals and upgrade to high end zoomable solutions with much better optics at every level (which really does make a differnece!). I got my Olympus 20x/40x for 20 Euros from a university surplus - with the help of a friend who works there, but you should be able to get a decent starters kit for around £50 second hand anywhere I think. The other day I could buy something like this zoom trinocular with 12x-80x zoom for some 250 Euros (maybe less, but I didn't have the money anyway of course), which approaches your budget and is a much better piece of hardware.

Cheers, Arp

Last edited by Pudding4brains; 28-11-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 29-11-2011, 10:01 AM
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It looks as though I am already too late to add my bit

In the mycology field I need both the low powered and high powered microscopes . I bought the latter from Brunel and found them very helpful. They will advise and have on occasions even suggest a cheaper scope if they feel you are paying for something that is unnecessary.

I ended up buying a SEBEN dissecting scope through the web. There is absolutely no comparison between this and a top end zoom scope with fibre optic light source but as Pudding4brains said the light source would cost far more than my scope anyway.
I agree that if possible you want to make life easy so you don't want to be changing lenses every time you want to change magnification especially as I often switch backward and forward between the two. This would make the MX4/5 the best options.

Mine has 2x and 4x objective with 10x and 20x eye pieces but for my use I very rarely go to the trouble of changing the eye pieces and manage with just using the rotating objective. It has a choice of reflected and/or transmitted light but again looking at mycological specimens I rarely use the transmitted option.

On the subject of light sources I now have a couple of "Ex-Pro Photo Professional Mini Day (Natural) LED Cool Running Continuous run Light Set" from Amazon which give great illumination.

MAl
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Old 29-11-2011, 10:45 AM
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Howdy,

Thanks for the additional mycologists info Mal

I have a question that might also be of interest to Ferret still. I don't have a decent setup for 80x on my binocs and even the 60x is, well ehr ... clumsy.

How do you fare with the 2x/4x turret and 20x oculars? Is the 80x something you would still use in dissecting /viewing or would you then generally rather switch to a 100x on a monocular true microscope (assuming that is the lowest magnification you have there)?

Or, different question but related - and more interesting for Ferret. IF (?!) the MX-T5 would turn out to have a 2x/4x turret (which I was assuming not to be te case above) I would suggest that the following would be candidates:

Turret Oculars
1x/3x 15x giving 15x/45x with medium field
2x/4x 10x giving 20x/40x with biggest field
2x/4x 15x giving 30x/60x with medium field

On the low end 15x is not very strong, but still beter and more comfortable than a hand lens and ideal for looking at bigger critters (say 10-20mm range beasts)

I fare well with the 20x on the low end, and would be reluctant to advice a 30x for the lowest mag, but it might still be an option given that the field on this one should be slightly better than what I'm used to with the 20x oculars.

So the question is, would you rather recommend 40x or 60x for the high end in terms of workability. Of course 60x is cool for the really small targets (mites etc), but for general purpose I'm not convinced it would be better (too much, too little DOF). Then again, my setup is just clumsy (no adjustable height so I focus with an adjustable table under it that has some play in it) which certainly adds to my "only use 60x if I really have to" feelings.

For the moment I would think either the 1x/3x with 15x oculars would be best advice unless the turret is 2x/4x in which case I would probably have to advice the 2x/4x with 10x oculars (better mag at the low end and bigger field - delta 40/45x not enough to base a choice on).

My doubt would be the 30x/60x setup mentioned.

What is your opinion on this (or Paul or some other for that matter)?

Cheers, Arp
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:15 AM
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For a cheap microscope, Celestron probably offers the best ones with bang for your money. I mean, it offers you great options that usually come cheap. On Amazon, there is one that costs just about $100. An entry level microscope with features such as a condenser, triple objective nosepiece, diaphragm which is already considerably complete for the price range.
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Old 01-12-2011, 03:05 PM
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Thanks everyone for your advice this was far more comprehensive than I expected and I am very grateful to you all for taking the time to help me out.

As I expected there is far more to this than I first thought, I haven’t made up my mind as to which model or make yet, I am now leaning towards a turret system although I would like to know how easy/difficult it is to change the objective on the MX3 as this would give a greater range (with additional eyepieces/objectives). I found more information on the MX range and the 6T/7T have a x10 widefield eyepieces and x1/x3 and x2/x4 objectives respectively so I assume the MX4T & 5T are the same.

I was very reluctant to go down the second hand rout but I now think that this may be the way to go and if I wait a short while I may be able to afford a little more and get a better model, I see that Brunel offer some second hand and ex demo models.

Rather than ask people to recommend makes I wonder if anyone has knowledge of any that I should defiantly avoid.

Thanks again, Ferret
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:10 AM
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I use microscopes every day at work. The "big 4" in my world are Nikon, Leica, Olympus and Zeiss. I use transmission - but I guess that you are looking only for incident light scopes?
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Old 23-05-2012, 03:42 AM
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for most invertebrates you'll be talking about a stereo-microscope which is usually binocular and probably has abuilt in light. Beware that the light source may not be sufficient for certain purposes - notably, for many beetles you will want to see tiny hairs, surface microsculpture and many other small features for which strong incidental (tangential light from the side) light is essential. It's generally best to have a separate, adjustable light source for these - commonly a glass fibreoptic.

Last edited by goosey; 23-05-2012 at 05:18 AM. Reason: signature violation
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