Panorpa male & female

[JRsbugs]

HI,

After studying Arp's pics of Panorpa, and all his useful tips, I came to the conclusion the male I have is Panorpa germanica.

The female has different wing veination, namely the joined dark bar going across the wing which would suggest Panorpa communis, they are the two so-called 'common' species we have here apart from one other.

As I saw the male and female only two weeks apart, and not having seen any for three years, I am tempted to say the female is also Panorpa germanica but I realise that is not scientific enough!

I did, however, read that some P. germanica females can have this bar joined so I would like to know what else I should be looking for in the female, if there is anything other than dissection that is! Besides, I don't take specimens.

First set of 5 pics the same (one and only!) male, taken on 15th June.

Janet

[JRsbugs]

Next 4 images the female, taken on 29th June

[JRsbugs]

I have linked these pics to the WAB Image gallery, which I have been told can only be viewed by members of WAB.

I will perhaps upload them to the Gallery here (which I now know is not moderated) if anyone wishes to see them and can't view them, please ask!

[Pudding4brains]

Hi Janet,

The images are accessible just fine. The problem with WAB is that many people upload their images to the "archive" (not the "gallery" - different thing altogether!) and select one of the few categories that are for members eyes only, such as "Forum images" or some other (I actually suspect that this is the default?!). The normal categories such as "Unidentified so-and-so" are accessible for non-members just fine, but a lot always seems to end up in the unaccessible categories.

It's a real pain in the bum that many WABbers are unaware of this as it often makes it utterly useless to link to otherwise fine and interesting WAB-posts from other places in the internet, in fact I don't even bother anymore - too many previous dead ends for the intended audiences. Then again, WAB seems to have their own (peculiar?) ideas about the usefulness of linking forth and back on the medium internet in general, so maybe it is considered another 'designed feature' that it is useless to link to WAB-forums from elsewhere on the net - who knows

On topic:
The male is of course Panorpa germanica - well done for the ID The short and wide calipers (hypovalves) are well visible on one of the images which is all you need really, but additionally the large notal organ on the back (typically very large on germanica) and the wing patterns are all 'standard issue'

Females, on principle, are a tad iffy as you'll usually mainly only have the wing patterns to go by and those are hugely variable with quite some (perceived) overlap between the species. Literature is full of warnings that extreme variations of species X have been found that look just like species Y and they're usually correct. However, if you limit yourself to a certain region, be it a county or a country, you'll quickly find that the extremes in the variation are more limited than when regarding the species over it's full distribution range and this helps enormously in being able to guesstimate the species from "just the wing pattern" without failure after double checking genitally.

I have to cut this short now, gotta go ...

Your female, to me, in the Netherlands, I would sort under communis, but I would have to leave some margin for error considering that I have noted British germanica to have a slightly different (heavier) set of patterns than ours. Have a look at this topic for a quick idea of a heavily marked germanica from France however. I'll cook up some other "heavy" germans later.

Cheers for now! Arp

[JRsbugs]

[quote=Pudding4brains;8662]Hi Janet,

The images are accessible just fine. The problem with WAB is that many people upload their images to the "archive" (not the "gallery" - different thing altogether!) and select one of the few categories that are for members eyes only, such as "Forum images" or some other (I actually suspect that this is the default?!). The normal categories such as "Unidentified so-and-so" are accessible for non-members just fine, but a lot always seems to end up in the unaccessible categories.

Thanks for the explanation Arp, I usually select a category unless I'm just wanting to show someone on a thread one of my examples, then at times I use the forum category but not often. The 'forum' category isn't the default though.

You are correct, I doubt that many people are aware of how they can be accessed here, in fact not everyone knows about WATW

I had fun translating from the French forum on Babelfish , at times like this I wish I spoke more than one language but I can make some of it out anyway.

An interesting thought I just had when I decided to compare both my male and female's wings with the image on the French forum. The dark uppermost spot near the top of the wing is between two veins on the forum male as well as on my female. On checking my male I found it covered two sections, I remember reading something about that somewhere for a particular species but will have to see if I can find it again.

It would be very interesting to compare other pics so I will be looking forward to your "heavy" Germans!

Cheers Arp, and thank you for your input, much appreciated.

[JRsbugs]

A big whoops, I found another pic of a male which I had forgotten about taken on a different day! I take so many pics this one got lost.

The wing pattern suggests Panorpa communis, unfortunately this is the only pic I got of it.

[JRsbugs]

I cropped this pic of the first male further, and altered it a little more to show the basal spot better. The pic will still enlarge more if clicked on to get a better view of that basal spot which covers two cells.

[Pudding4brains]

Hi Janet,


This one is not the best perspective for ID, but I would sort under communis. What's visible of the wing pattern are very typical markings for these and I'm tempted to say one can just about make out the longer hypovalves on the genital bulb (but it might also be shade?)

This one is germanica without any doubt. Always look at the hypovalves first if you can

Please note that the story about the wing patterns that highlights the basal spot in the parallel thread is only about distinguishing between the two closely related sister species communis and vulgaris where it is not possible to use the genitalia from photo. In the other species, especially germanica, a wider basal spot may also occur!.

I'll try to clear up things about wing pattern differences between those two and germanica with my "heavy Germans" answer, but still sorting through images to find a nice set. I've put in a request with God to extend the day to some 40+ hours or more on various occasions, but obviously she's not listening

[JRsbugs]

Hi Arp,

Yes I agree with the male as P. communis, I think you are correct with the longer hypovalves on the genital bulb after checking your comparison pic on teh parallel thread, if you have enlarged the pic to it's full size that can be seen more clearly.

Thanks for clearing up the uncertainty on the basal spots!

I'll try to clear up things about wing pattern differences between those two and germanica with my "heavy Germans" answer, but still sorting through images to find a nice set. I've put in a request with God to extend the day to some 40+ hours or more on various occasions, but obviously she's not listening

Looking forward to the "heavy germans", and I have tried to listen to your 40 hour day request but I've not had a deal of time to put that in place myself!