Caterpillar ID and Ragwort

[reninfrance]

small diversion--
another unknown

[goosey]

Originally Posted by reninfrance

small diversion--
another unknown

Hi, I think you larva is The Cinnabar-Tyria jacobaeae and it looks like ragwort - Senecio jacobaea that you found this on (note the latin name for the moth/caterpillar and the plant seeing as we are matching plants and moths!).
Were there loads of larvae on the plant or around it? Ususlly where there is one you'll find an awful lot more.

[Burra]

Ren - take care of those cinnabar moth caterpillars! They keep changing the laws, but in the UK it's usually a legal requirement to remove ragwort from your property, which means the poor cinnabar moth is virtually wiped out every year, though the ragwort seems to grow back unscathed. We used to keep a few patches of it and go and rescue caterpillars from other patches before they were sprayed (or strimmed!) to try to keep the cinnabar moths alive. We're in Portugal now and the cinnabars, and the ragwort, seem quite plentiful.

I've also been gathering the flower heads to make a tincture to try to control menstrual pains. Dunno if it works yet...

[goosey]

Originally Posted by Burra

Ren - take care of those cinnabar moth caterpillars! They keep changing the laws, but in the UK it's usually a legal requirement to remove ragwort from your property, which means the poor cinnabar moth is virtually wiped out every year, though the ragwort seems to grow back unscathed. We used to keep a few patches of it and go and rescue caterpillars from other patches before they were sprayed (or strimmed!) to try to keep the cinnabar moths alive. We're in Portugal now and the cinnabars, and the ragwort, seem quite plentiful.

I've also been gathering the flower heads to make a tincture to try to control menstrual pains. Dunno if it works yet...

I didn't know about having to remove ragwort from your garden in the UK, luckily I am in Holland . I have selfseeded ragwort by the front door which seems to be getting bigger by the day - its over 1.2m tall now, but covered in Cinnabar larvae.They are all different sizes from tiny to about 3cm long.
They are so funny - they go "walk about" over the path and to other plants, or climb upto the first floor windows, then come back to the ragwort (at least the large ones do - I thought they were off to pupate at first).
During the winter when it was only a about 5/6cm high and a little clump - there were a couple of Angle shades larvae and tiny beetles which lived in there.

Its such a great plant, it always has insects and moths on. I will be taking the seeds and putting them in the back garden for next year.

Let us know how you get on with your tincture!

[Pudding4brains]

There is an excellent website about ragwort for the Netherlands at jakobskruiskruid.com (which also has English pages at ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com) and en equally worthwhile site for Britain at ragwortfacts.com.

If at all unsure about the law, you may want to check their page "Ragwort and the Law - The Weeds Act 1959 ". In short, it would seem that you're not obliged to pull anything unless you get ordered to do so!

Cheers!
Arp

[goosey]

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

There is an excellent website about ragwort for the Netherlands at jakobskruiskruid.com (which also has English pages at ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com) and en equally worthwhile site for Britain at ragwortfacts.com.

If at all unsure about the law, you may want to check their page "Ragwort and the Law - The Weeds Act 1959 ". In short, it would seem that you're not obliged to pull anything unless you get ordered to do so!

Cheers!
Arp

Thats an interesting site - what surprised me is that there is a Ragwort forum!

[Esther Hegt]

Originally Posted by goosey

Thats an interesting site - what surprised me is that there is a Ragwort forum!

I saw some visitors at my website and want to answer this about a forum.
I think it is nescesary to have a forum for questions about ragwort cause there is a lot of fear, there is also a lot of misinformation about ragwort and other yellow plants. Sorry, English is not my native language but I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
The forum is Dutch, I think it is maybe good to make an English forum to for ragwort questions and the determination of yellow flowering plants. But I can't do that alone, I don't know the English words for the plants and also I cannot recognise all the plants. If I do that I need help.
In the Netherlands is fear with thanks to the English newspapers and websites. Ragwort was always common in the Netherlands and in England to. I am a horsekeeper and I know that prevention is easier than cure at the property.

Cheers Esther

[paul m]

Originally Posted by Burra

.........They keep changing the laws, but in the UK it's usually a legal requirement to remove ragwort from your property, which means the poor cinnabar moth is virtually wiped out every year, though the ragwort seems to grow back unscathed. ...........

No, that's wrong. It is not and never has been a requirement to exterminate ragwort (and, let's not forget that there are more than one ragworts - Senecio spp). There have, however, been controversial suggestions and regulations about removing it from grazing farmland - has something to do with the horsey lobby.

[Pudding4brains]

Hi Esther - neat to see you here - welcome to WATW!

With your English I'm sure you could answer questions from English forum visitors too - don't worry about that too much - and I'm sure there are not too many Ragwort lookalike plants in Britain that you don't already know from the Netherlands. For the names there's always wikipedia or maybe soon some other wiki?

I'm sure you would manage just fine if you were to decide to run an English or dual-language forum

[Esther Hegt]

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

and I'm sure there are not too many Ragwort lookalike plants in Britain that you don't already know from the Netherlands. For the names there's always wikipedia or maybe soon some other wiki?

He hello mister pudding brains!!!
I Hope the another wiki will go work soon, but there is still the picture issue ( maybe it are bugs? ) The problem in England and the Netherlands is that all yellow flowering plants are evil. I really don't know them all, but I know the yellow plants a little better then other horsekeepers or farmers and know some bugs and how stupid erudication can be, most make it worse if you know the plant;-) That is better for the bugs. But a little serious, horsekeepers can prevent it by good management. What they want in Engeland make it worse. And is it not illegal to have ragwort on the field. In the Netherlands they tell the same that it is illegal in England but it isn't true.

Cheers Esther ( how do you call it pidgeon English?)

[Pudding4brains]

Originally Posted by Esther Hegt

He hello mister pudding brains!!! ... ( how do you call it pidgeon English?)

Ah, yes, sorry for not signing

And yes, almost: Pidgin English

Cheers, Arp

[Neil Jones]

First of all the nymphalid caterpillar on the thistle plant is a Painted Lady I think. I'm pretty sure actually.

Secondly on the point of ragwort it has been so vilified and there are so many people who believe the nonsense that is talked about it that one is almost reluctant to say anything but it is quite correct that it is not banned by law here. Esther of course is an expert on the matter. Don't worry your English is OK Esther.

There are a whole load of stories around about it that are false and you even see them repeated on quite official websites. Local councils are dreadful sometimes. My local council believed that it is a foreign invader! They had it listed for eradication with Japanese Knotweed!

Studying the science, the biochemistry and ecology gives a different picture.
Other false stories are that it kills hundreds or thousands of horses every year. That touching it can give you cancer or liver disease. Then there is the misleading stuff about germination and seed dispersal. They are all covered on the links provided. There has been a campaign and some of the people pushing this pseudoscience have a financial interest in people believing it.

It is actually a very valuable plant ecologically. This is what buglife, The Invertebrate Conservation Trust have to say about it.

Buglife | Ragwort | Ragwort: Yellow Peril or Precious Flower?

[goosey]

Hi folks! I have moved this part of the old thread to a new thread - and the ragwort aspect has become most interesting. I think having the two threads makes sense.

Originally Posted by Neil Jones

First of all the nymphalid caterpillar on the thistle plant is a Painted Lady I think. I'm pretty sure actually.

The reference above of Neils (welcome Neil!), is pertaining to this thread before it was split Caterpillar ID please

[reninfrance]

fascinating thread--
My elderly french neighbour-the retired farmer of this hamlet -gave me a strict talking-to about sorrel in my garden some years ago but has never mentioned the ragwort! (perhaps I misunderstood) The cowfield behind us has been built on and the cows now graze some distance away - not out of earshot though!
I noticed, this morning, on the way to our local town a field full of ragwort so will watch with interest how it is treated.
Meanwhile I am watching mine closely and recording the insects found there. The cinnabar caterpillars are happily increasing in numbers.

[goosey]

Originally Posted by reninfrance

Meanwhile I am watching mine closely and recording the insects found there. The cinnabar caterpillars are happily increasing in numbers.

Wouldn't that make an excellent little survey for members - to monitor their own ragwort and record species and numbers found on it. I am not at home at the moment and wont be for a few weeks but I hope other members can give it a go and we can compare finds.

[Pudding4brains]

Originally Posted by goosey

Wouldn't that make an excellent little survey for members - to monitor their own ragwort and record species and numbers found on it.

Yes, by all means - Esther would really like the input too I'm sure as she had already started a gallery showing critters using ragwort and a multi-language wiki using the images and giving more info on the biology of these visitors is in the making.

So I'm sure any records and/or (better yet) permission to use images would by much appreciated

Cheers, Arp

[paul m]

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

.......... there are not too many Ragwort lookalike plants in Britain that you don't already know from the Netherlands. For the names there's always wikipedia or maybe soon some other wiki?
I'm sure you would manage just fine if you were to decide to run an English or dual-language forum

[I've written this before so apologies if it turns up twice!]

There are about nine species of Senecio most of which (the groundesls in particular) could not be confused with Senecio jacobaea however I'm not sure about a couple of others - S. squalidus especially (well, it confuses me ). A key or note of identifying features might be useful for a survey?

[Neil Jones]

Originally Posted by reninfrance

fascinating thread--
My elderly french neighbour-the retired farmer of this hamlet -gave me a strict talking-to about sorrel in my garden some years ago but has never mentioned the ragwort! (perhaps I misunderstood) The cowfield behind us has been built on and the cows now graze some distance away - not out of earshot though!
I noticed, this morning, on the way to our local town a field full of ragwort so will watch with interest how it is treated.
Meanwhile I am watching mine closely and recording the insects found there. The cinnabar caterpillars are happily increasing in numbers.

There has been no campaign in France so it is treated as it used to be in the UK. There are actually some pretty good French data and papers.
In one of them they actually deliberately poisoned animals with ragwort because poisoning was so rare that they thought that French ragwort might be different. They couldn't find any examples in the scientific literature.

Incidentally on the wild about Britain forum there is a current thread where some said over the course of the thread that they thought that ragwort was an alien plant and that they used to pull it up whenever they saw it.

I have seen this. Ragwort plants pulled up and just left on the road side and I have heard a report of this being done on a nature reserve.

[reninfrance]

Paul's right -
No point in comparing observations if we do not identify which plant.
I seem to have 2 types;
Sinecio Jacobea - with dark green slightly shiney leaves - occupied by an army of red soldier beetles and the cinnabar moth caterpillers.
Sinecio Jacobea ssp erratica - with paler mat leaves, thinner and more separated at the rib of the leaf - occupied by shield bugs and what looks like the lava of Melanocoryphus Albomacumatus.
Both types of plant are over 1.5 metres tall here which seems taller than in the information I found.
I have been trying unsuccessfully to find a photo of Senecio Squalida anyone know where to look?
I noticed that the British wildflower sites I explored did not list ragwort at all.
Odd!!

[Pudding4brains]

Originally Posted by reninfrance

I have been trying unsuccessfully to find a photo of Senecio Squalida anyone know where to look?

Try Searching for Senecio squalidus

[charlieb]

Originally Posted by Neil Jones

Ragwort plants pulled up and just left on the road side and I have heard a report of this being done on a nature reserve.

Yes it does happen on nature reserves - but for legitimate reasons. Livestock grazing is the favoured method of controlling vegetation and are often supplied by farmers and graziers who wouldn't allow they're stock to graze on a field with ragwort. Hay cuts are also often taken on reserve land and stored for winter use - the main source of ragwort poisonings.

There is also the public to contend with - as has been noted there are a lot of myths surrounding ragwort and I have witnessed nature reserves come under pressure because they are not removing ragwort. And then there is keeping up relations with local farmers and landowners - if your reserve sits in the middle of a field of cows the farmer isn't going to be particularly happy that your allowing ragwort to flourish.

[Pudding4brains]

Hi charlieb,

and welcome to WATW!

Even if I can appreciate that in the real world things would function like this, I somewhat fail to see the logic.

It seems a bit like killing off foxes, wolves or eagles or whatever on a nature reserve because there is a chicken farm nearby - so what was the point of nature reserves again exactly?

As for the grazing, has it been researched at all that cattle grazing will actually eat the ragwort in such amounts as to be harmful?

It seems a bit like letting the rumours and hear-say that somehow settled in the farmers mind control the policies of nature management on the reserve as opposed to properly educating the farmers to convince them to let their cattle graze there.

Of course, things are never so black-and-white and there are many choices to be made in the management of reserves (such as financial consequences of being able to sell the hay or not) that I cannot even begin to grasp, but those are some first impressions of a layman anyway

You involved with managing reserves or other vulnerable patches of nature?

Cheers,
Arp

[charlieb]

Hi, WAB's been quiet lately so thought now would be a good time to join

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

so what was the point of nature reserves again exactly? :confused

That's an interesting question - not to let nature run it's course but to protect areas of important habitat. In an ideal world we could just fence of areas and let nature do things naturally. However there are certain habitat types that are close to extinct now - it is these habitats that need management to remain as they are rather than be allowed through the natural succession. Hence the proactive management of grazing, scrub removal etc.

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

It seems a bit like killing off foxes, wolves or eagles or whatever on a nature reserve because there is a chicken farm nearby

That's about right - if good relations weren't kept up with local landowners they would (and do) make a nature reserves managers life a misery. It's sad but true.

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

It seems a bit like letting the rumours and hear-say that somehow settled in the farmers mind control the policies of nature management on the reserve as opposed to properly educating the farmers to convince them to let their cattle graze there.

Yes that's the jist of things. Of course hay cutting for winter food is a source of ragwort poisoning (and using an external "ragwort free" source of hay may not be possible on SSSI land hence the importance of your own hay cut and again keeping up relations - if you can give a few hundred of bales to the farmer, he'll pass the favour back).

Much of the management (of which I have had little to do with, glady ) is dealing with and keeping people happy - after all they are the ones who provide the money.

[Neil Jones]

Originally Posted by charlieb

Yes it does happen on nature reserves - but for legitimate reasons.

No I was not talking about legitimate management but about well meaning people thinking they bare removing a dangerous or foreign plant.

Buglife document an SSSI being damaged because of ragwort hysteria.

[Neil Jones]

Originally Posted by charlieb

That's about right - if good relations weren't kept up with local landowners they would (and do) make a nature reserves managers life a misery. It's sad but true.


.

So that is a further reason to speak out against the hysteria. Landowners are over reacting because of the silly rhetoric and propaganda.