Zoos

[paul m]

What do folks think about zoos? I'm a bit in two minds - some that I've seen over the years were pretty appalling but things have changed a lot over recent years. I prefer the big open ones like Whipsnade but some in more urban situations are very large with space enough for some quite big animals.
I don't really like to see primates in zoos - although this orang utan in Berlin looked quite happy:
http://www.wildabouttheworld.com/gal...to/428/cat/503 I suspect that many large animals will only be seen in zoos in the future ...
Berlin Zoo is very large with lots of trees and many of the houses are new. A particularly interesting one was the penguin house:
http://www.wildabouttheworld.com/gal...to/430/cat/506
Keeping a cold house can take as much energy as a hot one but this is all well insulated, recycling air, with a meadow grown on the top .....
Any other recommendations.

[Zebethyal]

I too am not a big fan of Zoos where the animals have little or no room to move about.

I prefer the wild animal parks where the animals have plenty of room, albeit no where near as much as they would in the wild, but enough for them not to look cramped.

I would love to go on a safari some time to see the animals in their natural environment. I may get this opportunity one day when we visit South Africa to show our children where their mother grew up and that side of their heritage.

I agree that in not too many years time zoos or animal parks may be the only places we will be able to see certain species.

Regards

Tim

[Rhea]

I'd often seen tigers in Zoo's and wildlife Parks like Whipsnade etc- but once you see this amazing cat in the wild- you'll never be the same again. Its sheer power and beauty leaves you breathless. Its like a divine gift to be able to share the same air as it- even if for a few minutes. And the best part is - the animal completely ignores you, and just goes about his usual business. Check out this website-www.junglemantra.com. Bandhavgarh National Park has the highest density of Tigers amongst all the Parks in India- and its the best place for seeing Tigers in the wild.

[paul m]

I can believe that watching an animal in its native habitat is the best way but
there are many problems with 'nature tourism' (not just for tiger-watching ) - not the least being the pollution caused by people flying to see them. Tourists require accomodation and transport when visiting (e.g.) India - this impinges on the space available for animals - especially large mammals which need a vast area of undisturbed habitat for survival.

I suspect that the tiger will not last long in India unless something really serious is done to conserve it (e.g. http://www.france24.com/france24Publ...a6&cat=science ), so for my part I'll watch films! - if it does become extinct in the wild then I'm afraid we shall only see them in zoos ...

Originally Posted by Rhea

I'd often seen tigers in Zoo's and wildlife Parks like Whipsnade etc- but once you see this amazing cat in the wild- you'll never be the same again. Its sheer power and beauty leaves you breathless. Its like a divine gift to be able to share the same air as it- even if for a few minutes. And the best part is - the animal completely ignores you, and just goes about his usual business. Check out this website-www.junglemantra.com. Bandhavgarh National Park has the highest density of Tigers amongst all the Parks in India- and its the best place for seeing Tigers in the wild.

[Rhea]

Lots of people hold the view that the animals in the wild are best left alone and that 'nature tourism' does more harm than good. Sure, I agree to a certain extent. BUT- lets face it, those areas where tourism has come in- especially in the Tiger Parks in India- the tiger populations have usually gone up. This is mainly for 2 reasons, one the tourists act as additional patrols, and secondly- picture this- poachers for tiger/leopard skins don't actually go in and catch these predators themselves- they use poor locals. If the locals have a source of employment where in keeping the animals safe is more profitable then they will be more likely to join in to the fight to protect the jungles and its denizens. My husband and I live and work on the outskirts of a Tiger Reserve- so this is not just theory.

[paul m]

Your location sounds excellent, Rhea.
I hope that your hopes come true - perhaps I just read too many newspaper reports about poaching, habitat destruction, hunting &c?
I do recognise that reducing poverty can, in some ways, remove the need of local people to kill animals or destroy habitat.
On the other hand, it can create a demand for cars, roads, shops - and thus lead to destruction of habitat and pollution!
It's a very finely blanaced situation and, as I've said, I would much prefer animals to be left in undisturbed habitat ...

Originally Posted by Rhea

Lots of people hold the view that the animals in the wild are best left alone and that 'nature tourism' does more harm than good. Sure, I agree to a certain extent. BUT- lets face it, those areas where tourism has come in- especially in the Tiger Parks in India- the tiger populations have usually gone up. This is mainly for 2 reasons, one the tourists act as additional patrols, and secondly- picture this- poachers for tiger/leopard skins don't actually go in and catch these predators themselves- they use poor locals. If the locals have a source of employment where in keeping the animals safe is more profitable then they will be more likely to join in to the fight to protect the jungles and its denizens. My husband and I live and work on the outskirts of a Tiger Reserve- so this is not just theory.

[paul m]

This makes depressing reading ....
IOL: Starving tigers eat each other at zoo

[goosey]

That is so awful - it doesn't bear thinking about. Stories like this are so depressing . I can't say on a public forum what I actually think .

[wild worlds]

I must agree with Rhea I feel that one of the best ways to protect wild animals is to make sure they are more valuable to the local people alive than dead. The only real way to do this is by allowing tourists to visit. I know of a tracker that used to poach in the Kruger National Park, but now has a decent job and makes a good living, as a tracker, on a private reserve nearby. I think the majority of operators act in a responsible manner. The big issue is the sheer numbers of people that now want to see wild places. Limiting the number of permit issued must be worth consideration. But as for zoos, I feel that they contribute little to conservation and research and are jut a throwback to Victorian times. How many of the species currently in zoos are critically endangered?WW

[paul m]

Originally Posted by wild worlds

........ The big issue is the sheer numbers of people that now want to see wild places. Limiting the number of permit issued must be worth consideration. But as for zoos, I feel that they contribute little to conservation and research and are jut a throwback to Victorian times. How many of the species currently in zoos are critically endangered?

Yes, there are embarrassing numbers of non-endangered species in zoos but there is also much work on seriously endangered things - these tend to be insects, molluscs &c which don't get much publicity or sympathy really!

I think that urban zoos have a very limited value although they do provide a means whereby the casually interested member of the public can get a first look at exotic animals. I think there's a much better justification, for large mammals only, of wildlife parks. Several reasons for this: parks in Europe can be much better policed than ones in natural habitats (sadly); with climate change the historical home range of many species may (sadly, again) become desert or otherwise unsuitable; isolation of populations might be useful in avoiding extinctions from disease.

So, I was intrigued when passing this valley in Galicia, northern Spain (south of Santander), to see:


Apparently this is a wildlife park: I didn't go in but could only see elephants and some deer. Hardly native Iberian fauna but if the climate warms by a few more degrees, this environment might become more like that of East Africa?

Interesting to see that despite plenty of water availability they dig scrapes in the ground - I presume this is for dust bathing rather than a search for water?

[paul m]

Black has loaded some good pics taken at Chester Zoo e.g.
http://www.wildabouttheworld.com/gal...php/photo/1416

I've never been there - shall probably pay a visit - it isn't far away.
Anything more to know about the zoo? Is it in central Chester?

[black]

Hi Paul, its located outside the centre of Chester at Upton, check out their website for full directions. Its quite easy to get to using public transport which is a bonus.
Chester Zoo - Welcome to Chester Zoo

Lots to see there I'd recommend the Tropical Realm for the Fruit Beetles, Frogs, Reptiles; Twighlight Zone a huge bat cave; Spirit of the Jaguar - with Jaguars if you're lucky to see them and leaf-cutting ants.
Chester is definitely one of the better zoos with some fine work with critically endangered and vunerable species. However I do have very mixed feeling about the place at times and cringe everytime I see the Tigers pacing their enclosure and Asian Elephants wandering around in a mud bath. Although obviously both species draw in the punters I don't agree with caging species with large territories.
I agree with some of the comments already made on this thread about involving local communities in species protection in the wild. I've seen this happen at various places around the world with locals involved in building and running the lodges/camps, training to become guides or in some reserves researchers, indirect benefits from park fees going into health and schools for the community. As it should be. I've met people with great pride that they are protecting a particular species in their area.

[frostfire]

I think most the zoos in Holland really do do their best to be productive and not just entertainment. Something I stumbled upon a week or two ago was this: Blijdorp, a zoo in Rotterdam, which belongs to one of the best conservation projects in Europe, is now also striding to help the rainforests in Congo and whilst doing that protecting the natural habitat of the gorilla.
They are doing this by collecting old mobile phones and working together with a company which gives a certain amount of money for each collected mobile and recycles the wolfram used in the mobile. The reason Blijdorp is collecting mobiles to be recycled, is because the metal in it is escavated in the rainforests of Africa and by recycling it there is less need to destroy more forest. Also, the total amount they get from the company is spent on helping the gorillas in Congo.
There are different ways of handing in your old mobiles: there are dispensers in the zoo itself, or you can send of for special enveloppes to send your old phones to them and without postage costs.
Personnally I think this really simple way of raising money in a way everyone can join in, is a fantastic project and hope more zoos all around the world will take notice and also find ways like this to help nature a little bit more!

Here is a link for the Dutch among us who are interested:
Diergaarde Blijdorp - Mobieltjes voor gorilla's

[goosey]

That is such a good idea - easy to help and definetely a good cause. We have at least 4 mobiles which can go to the Blijdorp gorilla campaign . I will get on with it today and pass the word!

[black]

Some of the latest new from Chester Zoo about their efforts to save Amphibians

BBC NEWS | England | Merseyside | Zoo programme to save amphibians

[paul m]

I know that the Zoological Society of London is doing a lot of good work on conservation of endangered species - yet can find very little, if anything, about it on the web. Perhaps they should be seeking a little more publicity?

Other zoos are much more forthcoming - perhaps they need public support for the money. Interestingly, in relation to conservation in Madagascar, Berlin Zoo is actively involved with some of the activities mentioned in other threads:
Zoo Berlin / UNDERSTAND / About the Zoo / Tasks

[WildLife Warrior]

Zoos...ah what a subject. The only zoos that i am in favour of are those that are actively promoting the conservation and even rehabilitation of animals...especially the endangered ones. Zoos that have plenty of wide open spaces for the animals in question...right down to the smallest insect...they all deserve the right enclosures. Zoos that are purely in it for the money aspect are the ones that appall me, they make me very angry indeed.

Im sticking by my guns that the bet zoo in the world is Australia Zoo...i know that may sound a bit predictable to come from me but the work that goes on there is amazing. All the animals are in enclosures that are perfect for them and all have masses of room for themselves. They are fed extremely well with the motto of if it's not good enough for you to eat then it's not enough for the animals. It prides itself on rehabilitation and the care and even breeding programmes for endangered animals. It also holds one of the best educational programmes in the world and it is this that i also feel is important. All profits made at the zoo go directly back into conservation and that is a rarity in itself.

Another set i am really against is the likes of SeaWorld...i do not believe in putting animals through gruelling training routines so that they can spend their lives putting on entertainment shows.

On the nature tourism line.....in a way i feel that is actually a good benefit....as long as it is along the lines that for example Whale One works by....conservation through excitiing education...if we can touch people about wildlife and let them have amazing encounters then they will want to save it....people want to save things that they love after all.

[Ferret]

London Zoo and Whipsnade have an excellent website at https://www.zsl.org/

As with all organisations I think there are some bad, some good and some outstanding zoos, the best carry out conservation projects, research and education. I also think the animals in zoos are like ambassadors for there species, there is nothing like seeing the real thing in its natural habitat, but the we cannot all do that, a close-up encounter at a zoo can really inspire. It was a visit to London zoo, 46 years ago, at the age of seven that got me seriously interested in wildlife I still remember standing beside an Elephant in absolute awe and wonder as though it was yesterday. Despite the wonderful films and documentaries we now get on TV it’s not quite the same as seeing it in real life, especially for children.
Zoos along with Wildlife parks, which after all are only Zoo’s with more space, also offer a reservoir of animals to help restock wild environments from which a species has become extinct or dangerously reduced when the habitat or attitudes change for the better. The Arabian Oryx, Ne-Ne and Mauritius Pink Pigeon spring immediately to mind would these species even exist today if it was not for the actions of London Zoo, Wildfowl Trust (now the Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust) and Jersey Zoo (the home of the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust), I am sure there are other examples and I know there are many ongoing projects covering everything from Gorillas to snails and Vultures to Crickets and if the animals in these projects are on display to the public in zoos in order to help pay for these projects then that’s fine by me. As for the commoner animals well they might be common today but what of the future, if we have good breeding populations already in captivity we have a safety net.
Of coarse zoos have to be able to provide a suitable environment for each species and some are better suited to zoo life than others, I have as yet never seen or heard of a Zoo, Aquarium or Wildlife Park, there all Zoos after all, that comes anywhere near providing a decent environment for Dolphin’s and Toothed Whales.
I could go on but I feel I am staring to ramble and I supposed to be working from home today so must get on.
Ferret

[paul m]

I've just come across this site:
The Good Zoo Guide Online
It gives species lists, notes on conservation activity &c - patchy at the momemt but a good reference source.

[jdbinion]

Originally Posted by Zebethyal

I too am not a big fan of Zoos where the animals have little or no room to move about.

I agree that in not too many years time zoos or animal parks may be the only places we will be able to see certain species.

Regards

Tim

Tim,

Thank goodness we have people like John and Jutta Kay. John is a friend of mine ( I worked for the band ) who is and always was the lead singer for Steppenwolf. What's he doing with his time now days ? Check out the new site he and his wife have developed. It's very impressive what they have done with retired zoo and circus elephants as well as helping raise funds for other wildlife projects.Maue Kay Foundation They can be viewed by "Elecam"

I, on the other hand,...due to traveling to Brasil on our 2000 tour, married a lady from Brasil and am now working in the Reforestation of Endangered Tree species in Brasil. I'm new to this forum and thought this would be a good way to bring awareness to both of our projects.
Dalbergia Preservation

Just a couple of older hippies trying to make a difference. You can take the boys out of the 60's but you can't take the 60's out of the boys.

[paul m]

Thanks for that intro - all sounds good stuff: keep up the good work.

While talking about elephants, I see that the new house has opened at Copenhagen Zoo: all mod cons, it sems - Wait till you see our swimming pool! | Art & Architecture | guardian.co.uk Arts
- looks more spacious than many elephant houses.

Originally Posted by jdbinion

Tim,

Thank goodness we have people like John and Jutta Kay. John is a friend of mine ( I worked for the band ) who is and always was the lead singer for Steppenwolf. What's he doing with his time now days ? Check out the new site he and his wife have developed. It's very impressive what they have done with retired zoo and circus elephants as well as helping raise funds for other wildlife projects.Maue Kay Foundation They can be viewed by "Elecam"

I, on the other hand,...due to traveling to Brasil on our 2000 tour, married a lady from Brasil and am now working in the Reforestation of Endangered Tree species in Brasil. I'm new to this forum and thought this would be a good way to bring awareness to both of our projects.
Dalbergia Preservation

Just a couple of older hippies trying to make a difference. You can take the boys out of the 60's but you can't take the 60's out of the boys.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by paul m

Any other recommendations.

I went to Noorder Dierenpark in Emmen, in the north east of Holland near the German border, last week and even though I have always heard many good things about it, it was a lot better than I expected.
The park itself is quite large and it has just bought a lot of new land for devellopment. All the enclosures are large and the whole zoo is built up around education; most of the animals there are connected to a exhibit about their species.
There were a few enclosures that especially made an impression on me; the African plains (with Girraffe, White Rhino, Zebra, Ostrich, Brindled Gnu, Impala, Elipsen Waterbucks and others), the penguin house, the brown bear enclosure and the big cats (tigers and cheetahs). There aren't any lions, but the parks symbol is the Sumatran Tiger and seems to focus more on a select group of (mainly social) animals which are cared for as properly as possible then on a large selection of exotic animals in a small area. I didn't miss having lions at all and it was so nice to see the cats in good sized areas.
The penguin house is in the new area of the park and for a part of it you can literary walk between them as the path goes partly through the enclosure. That was fantastic, but the best thing was watching them fishing underwater.
The last thing I want to mention are the brown bears. They had one of the best enclosures I have seen; there was lots of green space, rocky outcrops, trees and water(falls). It was lovely watching the bears swimming and walking about.
Definitely worth a visit if you are in the area either in Germany or Holland!

[Fairy-wren]

I'm all for zoos; we need them for educating the general public and raising awareness. Also, a lot of zoos have breeding programs that in some cases are a stronghold for certain species (like Tasmanian devils).

Of course I don't support zoos where the animals aren't cared for properly and don't have suitable enclosures.

Open range zoos like Werribee Open Range Zoo in Australia are great, but I don't know if most cities have the space for zoos like it.

[swallow]

Originally Posted by paul m

I've just come across this site:
The Good Zoo Guide Online
It gives species lists, notes on conservation activity &c - patchy at the momemt but a good reference source.

This is very interesting site. I looked up Italy, Rome zoo, which did not get a high approval rating, partly because of old enclosures etc. The zoo in Fasano, south Italy, which I have visited, (mentioned in thread re visiting Italy) has similar problems although the lions/giraffes and some of the bears have a large safari type park, they have the tiniest pool for the hippoes, some disturbed bears with repetitive behaviour and small and dull enclosures for the primates. Plus a mad elephant, but maybe rescued from another zoo. So good and some very bad I thought.
I hope some of the enclosures will be modernised before too long there.
I've always loved London zoo, and it is a good educational resource as well as its breeding programmes.

[paul m]

Most zoos seem to be a bit of good and a bit of bad! I was in Madrid recently but didn't have time to get to the zoo. The review - Madrid Zoo (Zoo Acuario de la Casa de Campo) - doesn't sound very enthusiastic but I've heard/read good reports elsewhere: apparently there are very few fences/cages nowadays - should make for good photography!

I did get a chance to visit Lisbon Zoo and I'll put up a few pics from there: seemed good for some animals but not so great for birds and, in my opinion, elephants: the latter should really be out in big open spaces.

Originally Posted by swallow

This is very interesting site. I looked up Italy, Rome zoo, which did not get a high approval rating, partly because of old enclosures etc. The zoo in Fasano, south Italy, which I have visited, (mentioned in thread re visiting Italy) has similar problems although the lions/giraffes and some of the bears have a large safari type park, they have the tiniest pool for the hippoes, some disturbed bears with repetitive behaviour and small and dull enclosures for the primates. Plus a mad elephant, but maybe rescued from another zoo. So good and some very bad I thought.
I hope some of the enclosures will be modernised before too long there.
I've always loved London zoo, and it is a good educational resource as well as its breeding programmes.