A couple for ID

[goosey]

Found 20-11-2009.

1.These were found on dead birch. There were more than the photo indicates and the largest cap which was a cross between granular and velvety measured 4cm across.

1.



2. I am rubbish with brackets and don't find them so appealing as cap fungi but I found this one more interesting than most with it's inverted conicular shape and pore pattern.
On Willow and measured 11cm across.
(I haven't put the picture on upside down - the reflection of the water just makes it look like that )

2.

[Cybershot]

My immediate thoughts were with Polyporus brumalis for 1 and Phellinus ignarius for 2, but a brief glance at FOS makes me think P. ciliatus is a definite contender for 1. (I'll report back after the England v All Blacks match and give you time to do some more research)

David

[goosey]

Originally Posted by Cybershot

My immediate thoughts were with Polyporus brumalis for 1 and Phellinus ignarius for 2, but a brief glance at FOS makes me think P. ciliatus is a definite contender for 1. (I'll report back after the England v All Blacks match and give you time to do some more research)

David

Polyporus ciliatus looks better for No1. to me until I read they occur from spring until late summer? Have you read anything to the contrary?

No2. I will check out properly later, but at first glance it looks different to other Phellinus ignarius I have seen and had identified before, but as I said, it was the unusual appearance that drew my attention to it in the first place.
Thanks for the pointers .

[NickCantle]

I'm thinking Daedalea quercina for second!

...lest I was, until I saw the word 'Willow'...

Daedalea salixii?

[Cybershot]

The bracket, like all juvenile specimens, is somewhat lacking in recognisable distiguishing features just yet but a quote from FOS*, the substrate of Salix and the common name of Willow Bracket applied to Phellinus ignarius here in Britain all point in that direction.

* "Fruiting body bracket-like, tuberous-inflated when young, then semicircular and broadly attached......."

It will be interesting to see if it develops like these specimens I found recently on Salix:




Interestingly FOS (and Andreas Gminder, when mentioning Willow Bracket having a very defined cap rim) also refers to Phellinus trivialis; the species varietal occuring on Salix

"...with a tendancy toward a decurrent tube layer.......Solitary or sometimes 2-3 fbs concrescent.",

whereas The British Checklist lists it as a synonym thus:

"Phellinus igniarius (L.) Quél., Enchir. fung. (Paris): 172 (1886)

Boletus igniarius L., Sp. pl. 2: 1176 (1753)
Polyporus igniarius (L.) Fr., Syst. mycol. (Lundae) 1: 375 (1821)
Fomes igniarius (L.) Cooke, Grevillea 14(no. 69): 18 (1885)
Fomes trivialis Bres., Iconogr. mycol. (Paris) 20: 995 (1931)
Phellinus trivialis (Bres.) Kreisel, Repert. Nov. Spec. Regn. veg. 69: 212 (1964)

Habitat: Parasitic. Usually living trunks of Salix spp. Reported on Alnus, Betula, Malus and (dubiously) Pinus sylvestris.

Notes: Occasional but widespread. Probably a species complex, not yet fully resolved."

Ref: Checklist of the British & Irish Basidiomycota

So it seems there is still some conjecture regarding this species depending on the various substrates and I look forward to further reports from Shirley.

David

[Cybershot]

Originally Posted by goosey

Polyporus ciliatus looks better for No1. to me until I read they occur from spring until late summer? Have you read anything to the contrary?

FOS also says April - June for P. ciliatus and further remarks:

"The species described here could be confused with P. brumalis which, however, appears in winter and early spring, has larger pores (those of P. ciliatus are barely visibleto the naked eye apparently), and has a non-mottled stipe. Certain intermediate forms could present difficulties in identification"

It was the "margin inrolled for a long time, tomentose, sometimes also fringed,......" and "distinctly mottled stipe with a snakelike pattern,....." comments in FOS that led me to believe yours was P. ciliatus Shirley.

The images of both in FOS are very similar though and comparisons elsewhere were inconclusive.

So, down to the size of the pores and time of year, methinks P. brumalis: Other than that it's back to microscopy!

David

[bulbosa]

Looking at the edge of your Polypore I would certainly have gone for P ciliatus but the pores do look far to big and so I think I would agree with David and feel P brumalis is more likely.

Mal

[goosey]

Originally Posted by Cybershot

The images of both in FOS are very similar though and comparisons elsewhere were inconclusive.

So, down to the size of the pores and time of year, methinks P. brumalis: Other than that it's back to microscopy!

David

Originally Posted by bulbosa

Looking at the edge of your Polypore I would certainly have gone for P ciliatus but the pores do look far to big and so I think I would agree with David and feel P brumalis is more likely.

Mal

Thankyou both - I shall name No1. Polyporus brumalis.

And, yes of course I will keep an eye on No2. and keep you posted .

[goosey]

Originally Posted by goosey

Found 20-11-2009.
2.
On Willow and measured 11cm across.
(I haven't put the picture on upside down - the reflection of the water just makes it look like that )

2.

I managed to get out today for a while and checked this out again. I noticed there were two more brackets on the same tree, hopefully these less interesting specimens will help a bit more to an identification or a confirmation of Willow bracket.
The larger of these was 15cm across. (image 2b).
Also, the colour of the original bracket seems to have changed to red and brown, last week there was not even a hint of red. I don't know if this is purely down to the rain and it now being wet or it is through age and a natural process? Still11cm across.

2b.

[Cybershot]

Originally Posted by goosey

I managed to get out today for a while and checked this out again. I noticed there were two more brackets on the same tree, hopefully these less interesting specimens will help a bit more to an identification or a confirmation of Willow bracket.
The larger of these was 15cm across. (image 2b).
Also, the colour of the original bracket seems to have changed to red and brown, last week there was not even a hint of red. I don't know if this is purely down to the rain and it now being wet or it is through age and a natural process? Still11cm across.

2b.

This one's puzzling me Shirely; it just doesn't look right for P. ignarius the colouring of the upper surface is wrong, and what we can see of the pore surface indicates largish open pores as opposed to being fined-pored, red-brown when growing, gray to brownish-gray at other times. FoS dedicates three full pages of plates depicting the pore surfaces (colours and patterns) of 45 fungi with pores so it is important to know this detail: Large or small pore openings, round, oval, elongated, maze-like, lamellae-like, forked etc. I know you mentioned the wet conditions but one species, Inonotus hispidus has small openings in the pore surface (sulphur yellow when young then ocherish to gray-ochre) through which guttation drops exude. Little is adding up at the moment.

David

[goosey]

Originally Posted by Cybershot

This one's puzzling me Shirely; it just doesn't look right for P. ignarius the colouring of the upper surface is wrong, and what we can see of the pore surface indicates largish open pores as opposed to being fined-pored, red-brown when growing, gray to brownish-gray at other times. FoS dedicates three full pages of plates depicting the pore surfaces (colours and patterns) of 45 fungi with pores so it is important to know this detail: Large or small pore openings, round, oval, elongated, maze-like, lamellae-like, forked etc. I know you mentioned the wet conditions but one species, Inonotus hispidus has small openings in the pore surface (sulphur yellow when young then ocherish to gray-ochre) through which guttation drops exude. Little is adding up at the moment.

David

Thanks David, another puzzle to keep your brain active then .
Until I can get back and take some close up images of the pores and measure them I have cropped this one as far as possible. Even though the quality is bad I can see more detail now, so I hope it helps you.
You mention guttation drops, it was pure luck and impatience to get out that I caught this in a wet and dripping state (me and the bracket ) which may help get to the bottom of this in the end.

[goosey]

I got back today, it was cold and frosty and dry. The bracket had reverted back to it's original colouration, no red at all - so the red must be induced by the rain.

I am sorry the picture isn't any better, I could have done with an extra hand to hold the ruler while I focussed. The ruler is in mm.

[Cybershot]

There are definite signs of sulphur-yellow refracted in those guttation droplets and the rounded-angular pores are within the size range of 2-3 per mm. So knowing the trouble Shirley has taken to glean more information about this bracket it makes it more frustrating not being able to pin it down other than by saying the more references I look at the more I am veering towards Inonotus hispidus - Shaggy Bracket. But as so often is the case, with only photographic and macroscopic evidence to compare, I can't be at all certain; even when I think it may well develop through to maturity and beyond in the same way as shown in the images here:

Inonotus hispidus (Bull.) P. Karst., 1880 (Shaggy Bracket)

and here:

AIE - Tree Fungi - Inonotus hispidus

Here's hoping the monitoring continues and, if I'm correct, will be looking for it to turn red-brown and hispid-tomentose from tufts of agglutinated hairs with the young inflated rim becoming obtuse and thinner, yellow-brown and somewhat undulating later. Eventually black-brown and glabrous when old. The pore surface changing from ocherish through grey-ocher to brownish*. (btw the odour should be pleasant, somewhat acidic, and the taste mild)

(Ref: FOS, Vol 2, p252)

David (more in hope than expectation)

* We know what changes the fruit bodies of these pesky bracket fungi go through in their lifetime in order to keep us guessing: Changes

[bulbosa]

I have been watching this thread and staying out of it because I could not come up with anything constructive to say I like Davids logic but I have found quite a few I hispidus and even at the earliest stages they usually have the characteristic hairy surface and certainly by the time they reach the bracket stage The problem is I can't put forward any alternative so lets hope it develops a full head of hair soon.

Mal

[goosey]

Originally Posted by bulbosa

I have been watching this thread and staying out of it because I could not come up with anything constructive to say I like Davids logic but I have found quite a few I hispidus and even at the earliest stages they usually have the characteristic hairy surface and certainly by the time they reach the bracket stage The problem is I can't put forward any alternative so lets hope it develops a full head of hair soon.

Mal

Thanks David and Mal for looking and thinking .
I wonder why we seem to have such troublesome fungi here, I really wouldn't have thought we had anything any different than coastal areas of Britain.
Never fear, I shall keep an eye on these and see what happens .

[goosey]

I checked this out again today for the first time in getting in for 2 months and it has changed! No increase in size though.

1. The top has become more bumpy
2. A beige coloured ridge has formed on the top
3. The rim of the bracket has darkened and isn't so smooth and rounded

[Cybershot]

Good on yer girl for persevering and 'tis a pity we still can't be sure (especially if like me you've never seen one). Though anyone googling for more evidence

images of Inonotus hispidus

will be tempted to hold out hope that it will eventually display the bristly rusty brown upper surface that is characteristic of the maturing I. hispidus in distinct contrast to the younger stage. (One reference maintains these bristles appear on the growth zone closest to the substrate). Also most refer to the vivid brown colour of the cut flesh, so if a small cake-like slice could be sectioned out to check, it may help.

Keep at it and good luck.

David

[goosey]

Originally Posted by Cybershot

Good on yer girl for persevering and 'tis a pity we still can't be sure (especially if like me you've never seen one). Though anyone googling for more evidence

images of Inonotus hispidus

will be tempted to hold out hope that it will eventually display the bristly rusty brown upper surface that is characteristic of the maturing I. hispidus in distinct contrast to the younger stage. (One reference maintains these bristles appear on the growth zone closest to the substrate). Also most refer to the vivid brown colour of the cut flesh, so if a small cake-like slice could be sectioned out to check, it may help.

The person who took the images of Inonotus hispidus in your link must carry a ladder around with him as well as all the other bits of kit fungi enthusiasts carry around! Can you see how high the bracket is!

What a fab looking bracket though (and you know me - I don't do brackets!) - I hope mine is Inonotus hispidus.
I shall wait longer before I resort (if at all ) to taking a slice out of it to see if there is change. I would be so upset to find someone else had done it to this perfect little specimen.

This has shown me how not to just rely on memory in regards to how things look. When I first looked today, I thought it hadn't changed at all from how I remembered it. Keeping notes of things and photo's for reference and then comparing the changes show how even subtle differences become blindingly obvious.
I almost never even bothered to get the camera out and take my gloves off in the cold - but I had imaginary "cyber" coversations with you and Mal and asking for another piccie, if I didn't get one, I would feel guilty and then have make another trip to get a picture just for my own peace of mind .
Thanks David

[bulbosa]

Melanie (and David) Happy New Year to you both. I have seen quite a few I hispidus from the very young to the very old and unfortunately I have never seen one like this The droplets seem right for inonotus but

Mal

[goosey]

Originally Posted by bulbosa

Melanie (and David) Happy New Year to you both. I have seen quite a few I hispidus from the very young to the very old and unfortunately I have never seen one like this The droplets seem right for inonotus but

Mal

Oh! I don't know - we shall just have to wait and see .

And a Happy New Year to you too!