Geese

[frostfire]

Yesterday I went to Maastricht and I've never seen that many geese and ducks together, let alone in a city! I can't ID them though, but I was wondering if they were moulting and that was why some were completely white and others were more browny. As they were all sat in one big group I did think that they were one flock, but I could be wrong?

~*~Frostfire~*~

[frostfire]

Been going through my photo's properly and came across this one of this (strange looking) bird. I can't seem to find an ID for this one either... Anybody able to help with this one?

[H Dogg]

Its a Muscovy Duck native to Mexico, South and Central America but commonly kept as pets or as part of collections over here.

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by H Dogg

Its a Muscovy Duck native to Mexico, South and Central America but commonly kept as pets or as part of collections over here.

Thanks for the duck ID, they seem to have quite an interesting history. Apparently they have been domesticated in Native American culteres since Columbus' times. They were brought over to Europe by the Muscovite Company in the 16th century, hence their name.

Don't suppose you can help with the geese as well?

[caernerch]

grey lag x domestic or vice versa (sometimes unkindly referred to as cooking geese). modern domestics were bred from greylags so when to the two get back together you get heinz 57. It happens with mallards and aylsbury's for the same reasons - you can get some weird looking birds. Hope i'm right and this helps
regards
caernerch

[frostfire]

Originally Posted by caernerch

grey lag x domestic or vice. modern domestics were bred from greylags so when the two get back together you get heinz 57. Hope i'm right and this helps
regards
caernerch

Thanks Caernech, that explains a lot! I thought that they did seem to be a mix of the two species, but I never knew that they could succesfully get together. You learn something new everyday!

~*~Frostfire~*~

[frostfire]

Just got one more unidentified duck left now, any help:


Thanks!
~*~Frostfire~*~

[Ferret]

frostfire your last pic of a duck is a Mallard/farmyard duck, as Caernerch said in his answer it can happen with Mallards, well here it has and this is one of the many results.

Ferret

[frostfire]

Thanks Ferret! What interesting results this cross mating in ducks seem to have. Maybe another one you know, can all ducks reproduce succesfully then?

~*~Frostfire~*~

[Ferret]

Hi frostfire, before I answer your question I would like to point out that I am not a geneticist and am only giving my idea as an ammeter naturalist, so I may not have this completely correct.
But to answer you question no not all species of duck can interbreed only those that have a common ancestor and are still fairly closely related.
So let’s take the dabbling ducks of the Genus Anus, many millions of years ago there was one mallard like species which was very successful and spread all over Europe, Asia and the Americas. Now over time groups of these Ducks got isolated for various reasons such as deserts, mountain ranges, forests, etc forming and keeping them apart, some may have got stranded on islands or they may have developed different breeding seasons due to different climates so even if these two groups did meet say on migration as there mating seasons are not the same they do not breed with each other.
Now if these groups stay isolated for long enough they will start to change. those in cold climates will get bigger to maintain body temperature easier in the cold, some will get longer necks because the lake they live on are deeper, some will change beak shape to feed off the surface of the water or perhaps for grazing. Eventually if these groups stay isolated long enough we get different species i.e. the Mallards, Black Ducks, Gadwalls, Teals, Shovelers, Pintails, etc.
Now to breed together the cells in the male’s sperm and the female ovum must be able to join together to form a viable chick. To make this easier to understand think of the cells in the sperm and ovum as being two parts of a zip with each tooth of the zip carrying information about what shape and colour the chick should be.
Now the longer each group of our ancient Mallard is isolated the more they change, so the information on each tooth of the zip will change, and if isolated for extremely long periods even the spacing and number of teeth per centimetre may change. So when the deserts recede the mountain ranges get worn away or for whatever reason two of these groups come together again and individuals from each group try to mate, perhaps due to an excess of say drakes that cannot get a mate from there own group they try to mate with a female from the other closely related group. Now if there genetic material is still similar, the two halves of the zip can join smoothly together and the zip teeth are roughly the same shape and hold similar information you will get viable young that look like a mixture of both parents, this is what has happened with farmyard ducks, man has bread wild Mallards by selection for certain colours or body shape to produce our domestic breeds, so basically there zips are still the same as wild Mallard with just the teeth that control say colour all set for white instead of the natural colours, so when a farmyard duck and a wild Mallard breed you get a Mallard in every sense except with mixed up colours.
Now if two groups that have changed a lot more get together say Mallard and Gadwall they are still close enough that the two zips can still join together and produce young that will survive but different enough that they are unlikely to be able to breed.
In other groups the zip has become so different that even if two birds try to mate the two halves of the zip cannot join properly and the young cannot survive or if even more different cannot join at all.

This is a very simplified explanation of a very complex subject. Also remember that the idea of species is only mans way of trying to catalogue nature. For instance it would be perfectly possible to have a species that gradually changed from one end of its range to a completely different shape at the other end no clear change over point. Say with a short tail and long beak at the extreme southern point of South America but as you went north the beak got very slightly shorter and the tail very slightly longer until in Alaska you had a bird with a long tail and short beak, birds from each end of the range would be completely incompatible, different shape zips, but there would be no point at which you could say they actually change. Confusing this evolution lark isn’t it.

Hope I haven’t confused you even more

Ferret

[frostfire]

Wow that is complicated, but I think I just about get it! Thanks for your reply Ferret, really interesting, but I don't think I'll ever look at ducks in the same way again!

~*~Frostfire~*~

[goosey]

I saw this duck on Thursday, he stood out from the other ducks which were all mallards. Is this just a hybrid, or something different?

[Ferret]

Yes it's a Mallard with some farmyard ancestry, these birds are not hybrids all farmyard ducks (apart from the Muscovy's) are pure Mallards that have been selectively bred for shape, size, colour etc. birds like this are the result of uncontrolled breeding between the different farmyard variety's and possibly wild birds.

FERRET

[goosey]

Thank you Ferret, I will change the details on my photo .

By the way - it's good to see you here again and read you interesting and informed posts, its been a while .