New year,same problem ID needed!

[goosey]

Almost a year ago (13-04-2008) I put a couple of images up for identification in the fungi gallery. These were a complete poser – a mycologist (Mykonik) didn’t think they were fungal at all, but something insect. Some people even suggested blackberries! (wrong time of year though) All this time later they are still languishing now in the unidentified gallery, unloved and un-named !




Imagine my surprise today when I found some more (don’t groan ). Four groups of these things at different stages I think, on the same fallen tree.
Each little sphere was about 1.5-2mm, again some were seperate and others fused in a clump and some on bare wood whilst others on plant form. These were found not far from those I found last year about 50m, also alongside water on the opposite side of the canal. The habitat and the time of year must be perfect for whatever . I am hoping now that with new members around and new photo’s we might get closer to an identification?



Thanks

[Suzanne B]

Hi Goosey
I've been giving this a lot of thought for the past year (you'll be pleased to know ) and although I have no positive help for you, I was wondering if it was frog spawn or something similar that maybe got left in the wrong place? It's about the right time for them and it's strange that you only see it at this time of year.
I've got an external link of something similar ( you can remove when necessary) so you can compare. Google Image Result for http://files.myopera.com/Words/blog/spawn_1403098782.jpg
Anyway, this is an intriguing conundrum for us and I hope you find the answers to your unloved piccies soon.

[goosey]

Originally Posted by Suzanne B

Hi Goosey
I've been giving this a lot of thought for the past year (you'll be pleased to know ) and although I have no positive help for you, I was wondering if it was frog spawn or something similar that maybe got left in the wrong place? It's about the right time for them and it's strange that you only see it at this time of year.
I've got an external link of something similar ( you can remove when necessary) so you can compare. Google Image Result for http://files.myopera.com/Words/blog/spawn_1403098782.jpg
Anyway, this is an intriguing conundrum for us and I hope you find the answers to your unloved piccies soon.

Thanks Suzanne, I am glad you have been spending your time doing something useful .

Until I saw your link, I thought you were way off in your frog spawn theory - but it does look very similar. Providing the person on the link got their ID correct! I have my reserves as the "things" I saw today were on a tree tunk a few feet off the ground - but if the roots were still in the ground frogs could have made the journey up higher. As the things don't look like convensional spawn I wonder if it's dead, and maybe a bird had started to eat it out of the water? They were found close to water so spawn could be an assumption .

What are other peoples thoughts on this please?

[goosey]

Well, I think Suzanne could be on to something! (and this thread will have to moved to another forum ) I have been back and the tree I found them on, is actually in the water and has fallen across the bank. I thought that solved our access for the frog problem then I found these on the ground –

1. 2. 3.


These pictures look a lot more like frog spawn to me, but is that intestine I see? Could something have killed the frog and disemboweled it? And image 3. looks like the membrane has started to dried up exposing eggs?

As I was peering into the water trying to see frog spawn or frogs or just more clues I heard long sort of rumble/burp noise (not a croak or a rivet) coming from the undergrowth right on the bank – I couldn’t see anything though. I have been thinking and last year there were thousands of toadlets on and around the canal bank – I have never seen frogs though, but was what I heard a frog?

[kayleigh]

No 2 + 3 looks like intestines of a frog but there is no sign of a body looks to me like something has predated a pregnant frog and not eaten the spawn.
the last pic looks like the spawn is drying up..
I could be wrong....

It could equally be toad remains as they lay long strings of spawn..

[paul m]

Yes, the stringy bits could be toad or newt spawn but, as noted, the rest looks rather undeveloped .... the tubes could be oviduct or whatever it is called that the eggs pass down from te ovaries ..... the only time I recall seeing something like this was when a fertlised frog was run over by a car and her insides shot across the road ..... don't see how something like that could have happened here (someone with a big boot?) ....

[Suzanne B]

Originally Posted by goosey

1. 2. 3.


These pictures look a lot more like frog spawn to me, but is that intestine I see? Could something have killed the frog and disemboweled it? And image 3. looks like the membrane has started to dried up exposing eggs?

Urgh, that was a gruesome sight to go back to today but you are right it does look like intestines and spawn, and you can imagine the black stuff in picture 2 drying out to look like a blackberry! It's all starting to fit now isn't it.

I've just been reading up on 'disemboweling toads/frogs/newts (like you do! ) and it appears that some birds such as herons and crows do this (and rats skin them). So that could be a likely explanation for the way you found it.
All we need now is a disemboweled frog expert (so to speak!!) to let us know one way or the other!

[goosey]

By hook or crook I think we have got there - thanks for all your help, and a ingenious tip from Suzanne - "frog spawn" I would never have got there in a million years!

Originally Posted by Suzanne B

I've just been reading up on 'disemboweling toads/frogs/newts (like you do! ) and it appears that some birds such as herons and crows do this (and rats skin them). So that could be a likely explanation for the way you found it.

There are always herons there, so they are my No1 suspect!

Originally Posted by kayleigh

I could equally be a toad remains as they lay long strings of spawn..

I think you could be right with toads, some of it does look like long strings, and I have seen toads there and not frogs.

Originally Posted by paul m

Yes, the stringy bits could be toad or newt spawn but, as noted, the rest looks rather undeveloped .... the tubes could be oviduct or whatever it is called that the eggs pass down from te ovaries ..... the only time I recall seeing something like this was when a fertlised frog was run over by a car and her insides shot across the road ..... don't see how something like that could have happened here (someone with a big boot?) ....

I don't think that the frog/toad was trodden on unless the same clumsy person was walking across trees aswell. Oviducts must be what we can see in the latter images.

Thanks again all, the probable result is a lttle disappointing, frog/toad innards and not a new undiscovered fungi or insect eggs - but now we know

[dmclean3]

Hi Goosey,
I was looking at your pics, and could agree with the predation bit, then I wondered if it could have been a male midwife toad that lost it's eggs,
The male looks after the eggs/spawn by wrapping them arround it's rear legs
until they hatch,
I'll try a google on that theory
Duncan

No , scrub that theory looks nothing like your pics, sorry
Dunc

[goosey]

Originally Posted by dmclean3

Hi Goosey,
I was looking at your pics, and could agree with the predation bit, then I wondered if it could have been a male midwife toad that lost it's eggs,
The male looks after the eggs/spawn by wrapping them arround it's rear legs
until they hatch,
I'll try a google on that theory
Duncan

No , scrub that theory looks nothing like your pics, sorry
Dunc

No worry Duncan and thank you! You have just taught me something new - I had never even heard of these male midwife toads. I have just checked them out - Interesting .

[goosey]

I know that the images have now been identified as frog spawn still in the ovaries and oviducts. But I thought I would say how some creatures would predate frogs and toads - now that I know .

Herons swallow frogs in the whole and crows do not usually leave remains, however, there are exeptions. (So my finds were probably not predated by herons)

At spawning time, otters will come into areas not normally frequented by them just to predate the frogs. Otters skin toads as the bufotoxins are contained in the skin and in particular, the parotid glands on the back of the neck. Otter poo (spraints) would be found on the canal side, usually done on a prominent rock or featureand will contain hundreds of bits of amphibian bones at this time of year. I am not sure if there are otters here - but it's useful to know.

Hedgehogs tend to strip the flesh from the skeleton quite neatly and leave some of the main skeleton.